麻豆AV

Here we are, Roy, on a very special occasion. It seems as though 麻豆AV School of Architecture this coming year is going to celebrate its centennial. Now, I don鈥檛 know whether the belief was that you and I were probably there at the beginning, although that may not be true, it鈥檚 very close to it, I think. And I believe, also that you are probably the first graduate, or at least one of the first graduates, extant. And so there will probably be some great interest in what I will be able to dredge out of your memory regarding the school, what it was like, and what differences you see between what it was and what it is today and so forth. So I know we are in the midst of admiring your marvelous watercolours, which represent another aspect of yourself, your many varied activities, but of course, your main interest has always been architecture. And so perhaps we can sit down and have a little talk about the old times.

Certainly.

Okay.

Yes. Well, do you want me to tell you all the failures I had as well as the successes or should we just forget about them?

Well, they say that confession is good for the soul but I don鈥檛 feel you ought to press that too hard. Well, why don鈥檛 we sit down where it鈥檚 comfortable鈥�

Surely.

鈥�and carry on.

[1:43:00]

Well, here we are, Roy, many, many years after our student days and it might be fun just to look back. Perhaps you can tell us something about your actual enrollment in the School of Architecture, when that was and what happened at that time.

Well, I had been, you might say, a failure at Upper Canada College. I was very poor at the schoolwork there. And when I came down to 麻豆AV, I got in because of the drawings that I had made. In those days, you had to present drawings and you would pass depending on whether they were good enough or not. And I managed to get in. Well, getting in to 麻豆AV to me was like opening the Gates of Heaven. I鈥檇 been such a failure at Upper Canada, and then I was able to draw things that were fascinating for me and the teachers seemed to think I could do it fairly well. So it made a tremendous difference. One of the first things I remember about being a student, that is just in the faculty of Engineering, is that we had to take Surveying. And we took part in the last Surveying School on the top of Westmount Mountain. That was the fall of 1920. And we actually had to sleep in tents and it was really roughing it. It went down to freezing some nights. And that was the first thing we did when we got back that semester. Well, as far as the mathematics goes, I was still very poor indeed. But the drawing was the part that I really enjoyed and I think excelled at.

[4:01:23]

Obviously, you did very well.

So that was my interest. Now, unfortunately, in the spring, I got sort of a pneumonia and I had to just give up and then they found that it was measles. So I just had to give up, I just couldn鈥檛 possibly be at the exams and do the supplementals in the fall. And I had the three mathematics and physics to do. Well, unfortunately, at the sups I failed the three mathematics and then had to take sups again, you see. Then at Christmas time, I was horrified and amazed to hear that I had also failed physics. Now if the authorities had known that I had failed four subjects, I probably wouldn鈥檛 have been allowed to continue. But they didn鈥檛 realize that. So it allowed me to go on. And if I hadn鈥檛 been allowed to go on, I wouldn鈥檛 have done something quite extraordinary, that is, I won third place in the Battlefields Memorials Competition, which was nation-wide. And I won this on my first design at 麻豆AV, which they handed us the conditions of the competition. And I won one of the seventeen places to go into the second and final part of the competition. And eventually, I got third place and a thousand dollars honorarium, which allowed me to go overseas. And I spent five months traveling around Europe doing sketching and mostly writing. And the whole thing, going over and coming back on the liners, everything included for eight hundred dollars, which is just unbelievable today, of course, absolutely unbelievable.

[6:44:04]

What period of your training was that, what year?

That was between my third and fourth year.

So you came back to finish your course, did you?

Yes, yes, oh yes. But it was a wonderful, wonderful trip. I have been over five times altogether and this, I think, was the best. I had five months which was really-

So you graduated, presumably without the Physics and Mathematics!

Oh no! I got the Physics and Mathematics.

Oh you got those!

Oh sure! Oh yes, I had to go through those. I had tutorial exams from Professor Dodd who was a wonderful chap.

[7:32:12]

Who were the other teachers in the School of Architecture at the time?

Well, Professor Traquair was the head of the school and Mr. Nobbs was head of Design. Henriet B茅ard taught us Sculpture and Freehand Drawing. Leslie Thompson taught us Steel and Concrete and Philip Turner taught us Professional Practice, Building Construction. So we had a really great lot. And Professor Carless was a-

Oh yes, Carless.

He was an assistant. So we had the benefit of an excellent lot of teachers.

I do remember Carless too, as a matter of fact. When he left finally to go back to England, our class was very fond of him but none of the other classes seem to have been, and we got him a Malacca cane. That was quite an event. How many students were there in your year?

Well, in our year, I think there were five. No seven, maybe seven.

[8:56:05]

Do you remember their names?

Oh, now that鈥檚鈥� Well, there was Cooper, I remember Cooper well. He had been born in Oxford. He was the son of the Dean of Truro, and he was an expert in Gothic. In fact, he came in very useful when Fetherstonhaugh went into the competition for St. Andrew鈥檚 and St. Paul鈥檚 Church. He had to look around for people who knew Gothic.

Feather wasn鈥檛 in your year, was he?

Oh no, Feather was ahead, way ahead of me, oh yes. But Cooper was one of them, now who鈥� Hunter, I forget his first name, and McDougall.

Cecil? Cecil McDougall?

No, no, oh no. Cecil was way ahead of me too. No, but this fellow, MacDonald, or something like that, he was from Nova Scotia. Then there was a boy, a French chap who was always sick and I can鈥檛 remember his name, I鈥檓 afraid. And Boullant. There was Linden Bouillon. And he was rather- well, he didn鈥檛 take things very seriously. He was much more interested in winning the billiard competition more than anything else. And he was wild about professional hockey; he just wouldn鈥檛 miss a game. So he really didn鈥檛 pay much attention to his studies and therefore had to do a year over again.

So you graduated then, and what happened after that?

Well, I went down to New York. And there, the first year, I worked in the office of H.T. Lindeberg, who was a country house architect, doing great, big country houses. And the reason I got in there, chiefly, was that I knew another student who had been at 麻豆AV, Ross Wiggs, who was a wonderful chap. He could draw anything. He was an excellent designer, an excellent architect.

[11:41:11]

He did wonderful houses, if I remember.

Oh, wonderful, absolutely. And so I got into the same office as he was. And Mr. Lindeberg, the boss, was awfully good to me. He gave me all sorts of goodies. Ah yes, he was splendid. And then, the next two years, I thought I鈥檇 to go to a bigger firm and I got into York and Sawyer, and that chiefly was because I had known a fellow at Upper Canada who was in that office and he was considered a great success, a great help.

[12:25:11]

They did a lot of Gothic churches, I believe, did they not?

No.

York and Sawyer?

No, no York and Sawyer. There was Bertram Grosvenor Goodhue. He did the Gothic churches and I had tried to get into his office but he died a month before I went there, so I had to give up that.

He was one of the great draughtsmen.

Oh, he was fabulous! Absolutely fabulous. But I had some wonderful experience in York and Sawyer鈥檚. What I did there mostly was three-quarter inch details, where everything has to be put together, the plumbing, ventilation, electricity, everything, steelwork and so forth. They all had to be done in these three-quarter details. So that鈥檚 when I really had serious architecture to draw. It was a wonderful experience. And I was one of the few people designing. There were two others, mostly. One was Moskowitz and the other was Diamond. And they were splendid. They helped me tremendously. And that鈥檚 how, when I came back to Montreal after three years, I was able to do big and difficult jobs like the [Sweesy] House outside Kingston.

[14:02:15]

What office were you associated with when you came back to Montreal?

Well, I went into Ross MacDonald鈥檚 for only two months until I got on my feet and then I started my own practice.

I see.

And I was lucky enough to get three really good jobs that were what I loved. One of them was the Sweesy House, which was following Lindeberg. It was his type of thing. Then I had a Tudor job to do and another sort of, well another type that might have been designed by Lindeberg, too. And the architectural association, the R.A.I.C., gave me awards on two of those houses. So I was really very [unclear].

[15:04:02]

What tradition did you feel that you were pursuing at the time? Was it something conscious, architecturally speaking?

Well, I would say, it was the sort of thing, sort of style that the English were following, leaning towards Tudor. Lutyens was one of the great people. So I really was very fortunate to start out when I did.

And what year would that have been?

Well, that was 1927. 鈥�27,鈥�28,鈥�29 and 鈥�30 were really wonderful years for me.

What happened after that?

The Depression came along.

That old thing!

And then it was that I was thankful that I knew Professor Nobbs, because he asked me if I would like to be his assistant at 麻豆AV.

I see!

So that filled the gap and gave me something to buy the groceries with, you know! And that gave me this marvelous interest too.

[16:34:20]

Well, I think our paths crossed at that time, because I think I was in my graduating year or so when you came on the staff.

Well, when did you graduate?

鈥�33.

Well, you see, this was 1930 that I-

Oh, you got there 鈥�30.

And I started teaching third year and you were in third year at the time. And we had a - they were a brilliant lot. They were nine students.

Nine of us, that鈥檚 right.

And they were all good.

We were marvelous, I agree! So how long did your teaching career last?

Until 鈥�44.

鈥楾ill 鈥�44!

Yeah.

And had you found, well, did you feel you made a special contribution in the sense that, naturally, the school would have changed its character as time went on. And was that change appreciable as far as you were aware?

Well, I never thought about whether I was making a contribution, I just did what I felt I should do, that鈥檚 all.

You were in design, of course.

Yes, oh yes. But I started out doing Domestic Houses and Watercolour. They were my two subjects. And then, as people fell by the wayside, professors got old and had to retire and so forth, Chambers and I took on the whole school. I did regular Design, Building Construction, I stayed away from Steelwork and Reinforced Concrete, but most of the other things I did. Professional Practice, and of course, kept on with the Watercolour.

[18:41:18]

When did you finish your teaching career?

In 鈥�44.

In 鈥�44.

The war was still on.

Right.

And I was all the time during the war, I was busy doing munition plants or gate vessels at Halifax, or aeroplane, I was with Norline Aircraft.

That was on your own-

Well I was-

-or were you associated with a firm?

Ross Weeks was the architect for Norline, and he told me I was assistant-architect. So, of course, that was just pure engineering, it couldn鈥� t be called architecture. But it was a contribution to the war effort. That was the main thing. That鈥檚 what everybody had to do.

Well, it had to be done and fortunately, you were there to do it.

Well, one of the greatest interests I had at the beginning of the war was when Clarence Gagnon asked me to join him in the design of a French Canadian village, which I worked with him on that for about two years. And when the war started, he said- I said, 鈥淚 just got to give up, I鈥檝e got to do war work. I can鈥檛 possibly just do this French Canadian village鈥�. And he thought that I was giving up; I should never do that, I should just continue with my work on his project. But I felt I had to give up.

[20:35:02]

So that lasted 鈥榯ill the end of the war, or close to the end of the war.

And then, lucky me, I got some big jobs. I was architect for the Chanteclair Estates and I had a big stone job up at Saint-Jovite, and various other things, I just, from then on, I was quite busy.

And you remained in practice for how long?

Well, I would say officially 鈥榯ill1968. Because I know then, I started doing- keeping tab of my watercolours. And since 1968, January 鈥�68 is when I started writing down the ones I was doing, and I have now done 1356.

Really! So eventually, are you suggesting that you eventually gave up architecture, did you, in the sixties?

Well, yes, yes.

And you have concentrated on watercolours and have done so ever since, is that correct?

Yes, yeah.

I imagine in the early days, Professor Nobbs would have been very much interested in your watercolours since he himself was quite a brilliant watercolourist.

Oh yes, sure, oh yeah. In fact, I know this, that the CPR sent me out West to paint the mountains in 1946, spring of 鈥�46, just after the war. And when I came back, he said, 鈥淵ou鈥檝e been out West, haven鈥檛 you? I would like to see what you鈥� ve been doing鈥�. So I went to his house and he said all sorts of nice things. So one he wanted particularly was looking down on Banff. So I said, 鈥淲ell, look, you take it鈥�. So I gave it to him and he reciprocated a couple of weeks after by giving me one of his famous drawings that had been in the lecture room at 麻豆AV. Remember?

[22:57:11]

Ah, great, great, great. I imagine you still have that, do you?

Oh, yes, sure. It was the Angel Choir at Lincoln that he had done for the- what was the prize that he won as a young man, you know鈥� Sloane? Was it the Sloane Scholarship?

No, I don鈥檛 recall. Well, you must have found then there was quite a relationship between the watercolour work and your architecture.

Oh, indeed, I did, yes. But luckily, I come of an artistic family, that is, my great-uncle, James Bateman, he was my grandmother鈥檚 brother, had nineteen pictures in the Royal Academy. And he was a chum of the great Edwin Lancier, who, he-

The great animal painter.

The animal painter.

Right, right.

James Bateman was an animal painter himself.

So you come by your sins honestly.

Well, I hope so. And he shared a studio with Lancier to start with. And they were good chums, all the time. So, and then I- from my mother鈥檚 side, she took lessons at the Royal Academy, and her drawing was absolutely beautiful, just lovely. And she had four brothers and they could all draw, so I had got it from both sides, which is really great.

[24:43:16]

Oh, that鈥檚 very fortunate that you had this family tradition. Over the years, Roy, you have seen architects come and go and buildings come and go, and you must have had some feelings about the course that architecture was taking. Do you have any conscious- or would you like to make some conscious expression of what鈥檚 been happening?

Well, one of the things I can say, this Harry Lindeberg that I worked for when I first went down there, and I only worked for him for seven months, and after, he sent me his book, which I have here, this fellow, and with it, a lovely letter. And from then on, he wrote me about four other letters. Now I was a junior draughtsman, I had just got out of 麻豆AV, and he was so good to me in this way. And he wrote, in one of his letters he said, 鈥淵ou were so fortunate to be working in New York at the time of the Golden Age of American architecture鈥�. And I firmly believe it was and I was so very lucky to work for the architects I did work for.

[26:06:18]

And how does the change in architecture- how do you react to it?

Well, I think the glass boxes are absolutely criminal. I think they are frightful. And on the whole, I don鈥檛 like modern architecture. But now, things are changing, so they are getting a little more shape and thought into the glass boxes, by putting decent shapes on them after all. That鈥檚 what I feel.

When you look back on- I don鈥檛 know whether you鈥檝e been close to what the School of Architecture is like now, or not, whether that period had gone by.

No, I鈥檓 afraid, I鈥檝e let things go too much. I鈥檝e had quite a lot to think about, doing both watercolour and architecture.

Right.

That鈥檚 the only excuse I can make. And then, of course, my other interests, such as skiing and sailing. I鈥檝e been sailing for seventy-five years. And I invented the rolling jib, for instance, which, that was- in these parts. Now, undoubtedly, it鈥檚 been done somewhere else, but mine was the first on this lake.

Isn鈥檛 that exciting.

Yes, a big help.

[27:43:15]

Well, you have, how old are you now, may I ask, Roy?

Ninety-five.

Ninety-five, so you鈥檝e got an awful lot to look back on and no doubt a great deal to look forward to as well.

Well, I hope so. I鈥檓 still enjoying life tremendously. In fact, I don鈥檛 think I鈥� ve ever been healthier than I am now.

Well, it probably bespeaks a virtuous life.

Well, perhaps!

Well, thank you very, very much, Roy. This has been very illuminating and I鈥檓 sure that for generations to come, that it will be interesting to see the sort of people who came out of the School of Architecture. And one of the characteristics of which, I think, is that they tend to become well-rounded people of all-embracing interest, and perhaps, that is what an architect should be.

Well, I took the opportunity of being in the hospital after a slight heart attack to write my autobiography. So if anybody wants to know any more, then can look in there!

[28:56:27]

Have you had that published?

Oh yes. It was published the day before my ninetieth birthday.

Oh, that鈥檚 just amazing.

So, that- it sold pretty well too.

Well, I hope that when the School of Architecture celebrates its second centennial, that the examples of this first generation will stand them in very good stead.

Good. Fine.

[29:31:11]

Roy, one of the things that always interested me, and I know it鈥檚 interested you, is the actual relationship between architecture and the other visual arts. And it did seem to me, and your comments would be very useful, of course, that when you train to be an architect, you simultaneously train to be other things. And I wonder whether your experience leads you to a similar attitude.

Well, what I feel, the difference between my young professional days and those of people today is that we felt, we were told that architecture was the mistress art. It was the boss of all the other graphic arts. And-

Pretentious even if true!

Yes! But today, the poor sculptors don鈥檛 get a chance. In my early days, I used to employ sculptors sometimes and stained glass. I鈥檇 have had the chance to employ really good stained glass people down in New York and that sort of thing, and mural painters. They鈥檙e all things that the architect could give employment to other artists. But today, it hardly ever happens.

Fewer and fewer.

That phrase, the mistress art, really meant something in the old days. So, I suppose it was because our feelings went in that direction that we paid much more attention to Freehand Drawing, Watercolour, Design of Stained Glass, all those things that Traquair used to teach, for instance. And it gave us much more fun, I thought, than just drawing squares and rectangles and so forth, the engineering part.

[32:29:15]

Right. Do you think this has partly to do with to the fact that architects, the practice of architecture has become so much more complex involving so many specialties, that it鈥檚 difficult for, say, the training of an architect to include everything and have that all-embracing mistress quality that you are talking about?

Oh no, I don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 it. I think we are capable of working on all these things at once. I think it is that the client just doesn鈥檛 think it鈥檚 worth the money. If they were more generous, we could still turn out infinitely better work, I think.

In short, you would feel then that architecture had become more of a commodity?

Yeah, when I did this Sweesy house, for instance, I had a client who thought that everything I did was perfect, which was really marvelous!

[33:34:04]

Part of the architect鈥檚 job is to brainwash his clients!

I did some of the carving myself and then I did the full-sized drawing of the other carving, the decorated beams and that sort of thing. And I had a whale of a time. I did some of the stained glass too. So I enjoyed myself much more than people do today, I think.

Well, I鈥檓 not sure that鈥檚 very comforting for the coming generation of architects here. I鈥檓 inclined to agree with you that architects today, for the most part, are having a rougher time, and a less enjoyable time in terms of their practice, which is very sad considering how noble an art we were taught to believe it to be.

Well, there鈥檚 one thing I firmly believe, and that is that if I were asked to advise a young fellow going into architecture, I would say by all means, go into a small office rather than a large one. I luckily started for the one draughtsman for the first architect I worked for and I learned an enormous lot there. And then going into Lindeberg鈥檚, where there are only five on the staff altogether, including the stenographer and the specification writer, and all that sort of thing. So, we handled all sorts of things, whereas, when I went in the second office, I personally was very lucky in the design work I had to do. But there was another fellow, who had graduated from Toronto University, and he was a good draughtsman, he really knew his stuff, and he got a job at McKim and White. Everybody thought Oh boy! McKim and White, imagine that! But for years, at least for the year that I knew him, he was doing nothing but full-sized lettering on monumental buildings, you know.

[36:08:08]

In Montreal, the Mount Royal Club, for instance.

Yeah, that sort of thing, the post office, and all this and so forth. Just big letters. Can you imagine a life like that, doing that?

Pretty deadening, yes.

Pretty deadening. So I鈥檓 all for the small office. You learn far more and you have much better fun. This feeling that, oh, I worked on such and such a building, you know, it really means nothing, at least very little in the end. The great thing is to get the overall, many types of experience. The last thing I did in York and Sawyer鈥檚 office, were plans and elevations at sixty-forth scale for the Department of Commerce in Washington, which is an enormous building, of course. And that, well, it was, you would hardly call it- it was designed but you couldn鈥檛 follow up your own work after doing work like that, it just meant nothing to your own practice, of course.

No, it would have no relation to normal living.

But having worked for Lindeberg and York and Sawyer really was- I couldn鈥檛 have asked for anything better.

[37:50:00]

Well, thank you very, very much, Roy.

Not at all.

And I think in a hundred years when these tapes are going to be looked at by another generation, I鈥檓 sure they are going to find some inspiration in your life and your experience. Thank you very much.

That鈥檚 good. Thank you so much for being appreciative!

[38:15:12]

[Missing Words: Professor Nobbs] was then writing his book on design. And he needed a student to spend the summer with him to do some typing and do some illustration for his book. So he asked me to join him. And of course, this was, you know, a great opportunity. So I would work all day, and in the evenings, I would sit around and read or listen to radio, or I had joined a life drawing group. And I used to go out about seven o鈥檆lock, come back about nine or ten o鈥� clock. Well, one night I came back from life drawing, and the lights in the house were all out, so he had really gone to bed early. So I took off my- I had a key to the house, I took off my shoes, and I had my drawing picture in one hand and my shoes in the other and I started walking up the stairs in the dark. And suddenly, the lights burst open, and at the head of the stairs was Percy Nobbs with a pistol in his hand!

[39:29:21]

My Lord!

(D. Covo): No sword?

H.M.: And I stood there, you know! And he just looked at me for a moment, lowered the pistol, and said, 鈥淗ow do you expect to do a day鈥檚 work when you spend half the night out!鈥� turned on his heel, locked the door! It was one of the most frightening experiences I鈥檝e ever had!

I bet! Well, that makes me think of something very similar. Shortly after my father died, I heard a noise downstairs and I went down with my father鈥檚 revolver and I went into the dining room and I saw a figure silhouetted against the glass doors. And thank goodness I turned on the light. It was my brother!

Oh, that鈥檚 funny!

Well, that must have been a shocker for you!

It鈥檚 funny, some things, you know, stick in your mind, you can never get them out. So vivid. It鈥檚 funny the incidents that you remember. I remember John Pratt, he was there at the time you were teaching, I believe.

Oh yes.

Well, John was a hell-raiser.

Oh yes.

I hope you are not putting this on.

D.C.: I鈥檝e turned it off.

H.M.: This is private.

D.C.: Ignore the light.

H.M.: And he was disliked by some of the other students. And once he did something. He was annoyed, he had a temper and he was annoyed, and he pulled a knife out of his pocket. And, you know I鈥檓 sure that he had no intention of doing anything, but the mere act of doing this sort of put people鈥檚 teeth on edge. And three or four of the guys lifted him up, and there was a sink in the drafting room, and they dunked his head in the sink. And I remember this because-

[42:25:18]

Wasn鈥檛 he splendid? Boy, he was a born actor. I remember when he was a student, well, we used to have a fancy dress dance every year, do you remember that?

Well we had one. Our year, the Flora Dora Frolic, we called it.

Well, we would be assembled in the room, and he would walk in and everybody would start laughing. And he wouldn鈥檛 have done anything, it鈥檚 just because it was Pratt!

No, he was a real actor.

D.C.: Did he ever practice?

H.M.: He wasn鈥檛 a very good architect. He barely got through his course. His father owned a lot of property and he inherited all, and he spent the rest of his life administering all that, then he got elected to office and so forth.

[43:33:01]

Well, one thing we didn鈥檛 talk about in our little chat, just now, was the effect that my sports have had on my success. For instance, when the CPR found that I could ski, I used to teach skiing a few times, and I was an expert in the Telemark Ten, which is coming back now as people are getting interested in it. And that gave me a certain amount of, well, people were interested in me, and the CPR sent me out West when they found that I could paint and ski. And they gave me this three-week holiday with my wife, all expenses paid. It was really great! So, and I came back- well, that painting on the left there is one of them that I did.

[44:42:23]

Really.

Yeah.

What year would that have been roughly?

What鈥檚 that?

What year would that have been?

That was 鈥�46.

鈥�46.

Just after the war.

[44:51:16]

Usually, you are so busy running around, you know. But what I did, recently, we were in San Miguel, Mexico, in February. So I took a lot of photographs and as a result of that, since February, I have been working on paintings on these Mexican themes, finding little spots in the photographs to start from. And, I鈥檓 up to about eighteen or nineteen paintings now.

Oh fine.

So it鈥檚 quite amazing. I鈥檝e never really preferred to work from photographs, if I could avoid it, but it seems to be a good-

Well, personally, I can鈥檛 understand these people; these teachers who say you shouldn鈥檛 work from photographs, because I think, what is the difference today? To look at a thing and have a photograph of it, it鈥檚 the same thing. Photography is so excellent. There is no reason that you shouldn鈥檛 work from photographs. And what I found that the English portrait painters, the really good portrait painters will take at least thirty pictures of each of their models. So, I mean, if they do it, why the dickens shouldn鈥檛 just ordinary people do it?

[46:27:19]

No, I鈥檝e done several portraits for 麻豆AV, including one of the Chancellor who鈥� s on, and I鈥檝e found it鈥檚 probably the only way to work. I like to make a couple of little sketches, but there is no way you can get anybody to sit now for thirty or forty hours.

Exactly, quite, sure.

So you have to do what you can with it. And photography being what it is now, it鈥檚 so easy to get the record down in a few minutes.

Yes, yeah, right. I mean, we鈥檝e got this wonderful help, the camera, we darn well should use it, it seems to me.

Well, there鈥檚 a precedent. You know, people like D茅gas used the camera all the time.

Do you know, that I learned the other day that Utrillo only painted from picture-postcards?

That鈥檚 interesting.

Isn鈥檛 it?

Of course, he couldn鈥檛 have sat up straight in the street, apparently. He was drunk all the time, the poor man. Yeah, he was an unfortunate but鈥�

[47:30:09]

Yes. We were talking about the effect that my sports had had on my success. And the CPR sent me out West for this wonderful three weeks and I had five lovely places to go to, and the skiing was marvelous and altogether perfect. And that had quite an effect on my output of watercolours. And I got to know dealers in Calgary and Vancouver and I, well the first year, I sold twenty-four to one dealer. So that has helped my success in doing mountains and skiers. And then another thing, I鈥檝e always been crazy about skiing. As I said, I鈥檝e been sailing for seventy-five years. And my first boat was a little wreck that I practically rebuilt. It was the only boat, sailboat in Sault St. Marie. And I taught myself to sail. And since then, I have built three complete boats and additions, or changes to two other boats so I鈥檝e done quite a fair amount of boat-building. And it so happened that I was- I sat next to a naval architect, Gordon German, at one of these public dinners where I was at the head table. And I got talking to him and he said, 鈥淵ou know, it鈥檚 too bad, our artist who used to paint our perspectives to show the client what the ship was going to look like, died of cancer. And now we have nobody鈥�. I said, 鈥淲ell now look. I鈥� ve done several ships. Would you like me to bring one along to show you?鈥� And he said, 鈥淲hy yes!鈥� So that鈥檚 what I did. I took one along and I did at least forty big paintings, twice the size of these for the naval architects. They would give me the plans to work from, and then by architect鈥檚 perspective, I would make a perspective drawing of the ship. And the most difficult part was the sea, of course, I mean anybody can draw a thing like a ship.

[50:50:11]

They didn鈥檛 have an architectural drawing for the sea!

No, quite. So I had to learn how to paint the sea. And because I had done a lot of sailing, I sort of have in my mind, I have an idea what the sea does, the way the waves behave, you know. So many artists think that when you do a picture you have the same amount of wind blowing over the same surface and it should be a regular pattern of sails. But it鈥檚 not true. It鈥檒l be very windy in one place and hardly windy at all in another. So it is not like the old artists used to paint. All these old Dutchmen, for instance, they would draw very rough seas and it was never like that. That was just a tremendous exaggeration. So my knowledge of what the water looks like has been very good for my profession.

[52:05:20]

Amazing. Really quite amazing.

鈥�It was a Georgian house in Repton, which is a sort of educational centre in England. It had a famous public school there. And my father was crazy about ships too and he bought a lot of full-size posters of the Allan Line, the White Star Line, the Cunard and so forth, and plastered on the walls leading to our nursery, you see. So I was brought up looking at these wonderful pictures by wonderful artists like Charles Pierce and Norman Wilkinson and Dixon. And they鈥� re all marvelous people so that really taught me an awful lot and gave me a love of ships.

[53:04:07]

[Looking at painting of ship] Oh my, yes! Well, they don鈥檛 do this any better anywhere! No, that [unclear]. I鈥檓, you know, particularly interested in the water, which is unbelievable. And that鈥檚 not concocted, that鈥檚 really understood鈥�

Yes. Oh, yes, sure.

鈥�and no formula there.

But I still get a big kick out of this one.

Well, you should! It鈥檚 extremely professional. That鈥檚 unbelievable.

And this one is when the days of the gold rush and they used to transport the men up in boats like that.

Well, that鈥檚 my kind of water, you know, it鈥檚 easier to draw than waves!

Yes!

Beautiful!

This is the [Cinderbine].

That鈥檚 pretty dramatic. Isn鈥檛 that amazing.

The [Cinderbine] always has this little bit of mist.

That鈥檚 mist, is it? It wouldn鈥檛 have been snow flurries?

No, no.

It鈥檚 mist, is it?

Yeah, it鈥檚 the highest peak in the Pacific.

Well you know, it鈥檚 there, but it鈥檚 hard to believe. It鈥檚 literally out of this world.

Well, I had a wonderful time there.

Well, you鈥檝e had a great variety of experiences, obviously.

This is the place that I love best in the world.

Of course, it鈥檚 Santa Maria de la Salute.

No, this is not. No, that鈥檚 Georgia Majore.

I get my religions and my churches all mixed up!

Well, I actually, I just finished one of the back of Santa Maria de la Salute, which most people don鈥檛 know about, of course. The front has been done many, many times, and it鈥檚 probably the favourite building in Venice because it鈥檚 so picturesque.

[55:19:03]