麻豆AV

Architecture was not something that came very clear to me. The only thing is I remember in high school I was in grade 11 or so and then some engineers and architects came to give us a bit of a briefing on what to do. And at school, at high school, I was always- school always came easy to me, you know. So I was sort of a [unclear] type of a student, you know I didn鈥檛- chasing girls. Maybe my hormones were-

Suppressed?

So I wasn鈥檛 thinking career very seriously at the time. So then- but I remember very clearly those architects and engineers came in in high school and then said- the engineers spoke about themselves and then the architect came in and he says- well, I didn鈥檛 know anything about architecture, so he says, 鈥渨ell, we do buildings, but we鈥檙e the master seer. We do the artistry around the buildings and we compose the buildings before the engineering gets in there and then it starts putting in the structure for it鈥�. So that left my- just a passing comment like this. And then I was in the Air Force for a couple of years after high school. I wanted to see some adventure. I wanted to see the country and so I went up and I was in Winnipeg and Ontario. I stayed for a couple of years out in Montreal. Then I was disillusioned with the military system so I came back to Montreal and I wasn鈥檛 going to- I was just going to- I didn鈥檛 know where I was at the time.

[1:41:03]

So then I remember a guy working for me, with me, at Canadian Petrofina in sort of an accounting desk. And then he said, 鈥淲ell, I take courses at night, you know鈥�. 鈥淲hat do you do?鈥� He says, 鈥淚 take drafting, you know鈥�. I said, 鈥淲hat do you take drafting for?鈥� 鈥淥h, because I want to get myself a career, see?鈥� So that was a couple of years after so maybe I should think about a career. What is a career, you know, what do you do in life, you know? So I remember very clearly in high school. I used to be very good at- then I started analysing myself. What am I? Who am I? What am I going to do? I said- so I used to be very, very good at drawings, you know, and sketches. And I used to draw the high school drawings and I used to draw the elementary school posters for the big occasions. And even in- it was all in French school at the time, you know, so we had all these Catholic things and all that. So I used to do the- I used to draw the bishop and you know, all these- the Holy Mary. But I took that for granted, you see. So then I said- so I started to say, 鈥淲ell, what am I good at?鈥� See? So then I started to re-think about what I should be, you know, and maybe I should be an artist, maybe I should be- go after the stuff that I know that I took for granted. So I- and my dad was a carpenter so I always liked buildings. You know I always worked in his shop. I did a bunch of stuff, carpentry and I had a very, what do you call, I think a very good childhood. You know, I was always left to my own and I was searching for my own, my own interest and my own-. I was always very interested in nature and then in things where you- discovery, trips and go in the bush and do your own thing. I was always adventurous, and that鈥檚 probably why the Air Force. You know, I got out there and I always wondered聽why am I here?聽You know,聽why am I doing this?聽Always self-conscious of聽what am I doing here?聽You know, and then I鈥檇 go back and so then I鈥檇 say, 鈥淲ell, this time, I鈥檓 going to do the things that I want to do. I mean, I鈥檓 going to go and I鈥檓 going to dream over there and come back in two years鈥�. So that鈥檚 where architecture came in as a very well thought out plan for me. You know, so then I figured well,聽maybe I should do- I鈥檓 good mentally, I鈥檝e got a brain, I got a- I鈥檓 smart at school so maybe I should apply it in an artistic way, you see. So then I really thought I would be [unclear]. For a while, it sort of converged and converged, it became very obsession that I want to be an architect, you see, about two, three-. So I applied at U of Montreal and 麻豆AV. And then 麻豆AV came back, because I remember reading the paper and all that stuff. 麻豆AV was an established institution and I applied there and then obviously, I had good marks in junior high school, so I was well accepted right away, so-

[5:00:20]

What year was that?

In 1968. And then- and naturally, you had to go first year in engineering, you know, so I had to struggle through all that. I really got disparate for a while, and all that聽I鈥檓 not sure that I can do all these academics. But then I really buckled in and then first and second year, second year came to be more of interest and third year was really good and fourth year, I really was in my own thing I think, still always doubting very much 鈥榯ill you get an accolade, you know. You don鈥檛 know who you are until someone tells you who you are, you see. But when I came out of school, I felt pretty good. You know, I was nominated for the Pilkington, and then I won all kinds of prizes and through the years I was- and I wanted to make sure I knew where I was, you see. After third year, I told my wife that if I was going to be in the right place, I would go to medicine. You know, I just want to make sure I could succeed. And that鈥檚 why I was- I put a lot in at 麻豆AV, you see. And at 麻豆AV the things that I was most- see, from a Francophone, you go into an English institution, you have a higher- it鈥檚 a mystery to one. So- and I really- because I was very serious about succeeding, about becoming a good student, about finding myself through school, then I really thought very highly of all the professors, you see. They [unclear] back at school, I find you鈥檙e very sort of infantile in a way, but now that you are thirty years in the business you know- but at the time, I thought those professors, all of them, you know, I really thought they were all great. I mean I really had a great time at school. I really thought all the profs, like Peter Collins and the Rad Zuks and the John Schreibers and the Bruce Andersons, and the Ray- and all the guest lecturers, I thought they were so like major stars you know of the school. They were like pillars, you know. And I鈥檇 [unclear] myself, 鈥淚f I was as good as they are. You know, one day, I wish I would be鈥︹�� One thing I was going to say, I was talking at the centennial. I gave a lecture, a centennial lecture you know, for the 麻豆AV grad- our year. And I said to the students, 鈥淵ou know, I hope that you get out as much out of school as I got out of school鈥�. You see, because it marked me as a- because I didn鈥檛 know where I was and I wanted recognition, you see. Because I didn鈥檛 know before- I wasn鈥檛 possessed and obsessed about something, you know? And when I saw those profs at 麻豆AV so possessed and so obsessed about perfection, you know? And John Schreiber with his brick lintels and you know, Stuart Wilson and all his framework and Tondino was sketching. And these were all, I thought they were, they were very excellent artists, you know, they were pure men in their own profession. And I said to myself, 鈥淚 wish one day, I would be as possessed, as obsessed as these guys are鈥�.

[8:27:07]

You actually thought that at those years of your life. You were thinking that way even then.

Oh yeah. So ever since then I graduated, that鈥檚 what I鈥檝e been trying to do! You see, when I first designed my first home, I was saying, 鈥淚 wonder what Peter Collins would say about this?鈥� You know? And 鈥淚 wonder what 麻豆AV would say about that?鈥� You see? And that, the higher ideal of the upper echelon of architecture was always with me, you know, to sort of keep above the nitty-gritty of money and stuff but kind of carry an upper level, a more noble look at architecture and a more normal servant to society. And that kept me pretty well intact. And obviously, you got the jobs, the work, the crassness of capitalism and all that tends to affect you, but you鈥檝e got to have an upper level enthusiasm for doing the great thing and doing the noble thing and being above the sort of daily-

[9:39:00]

Which is difficult to do. Well, what year did you finish at 麻豆AV? 1973?

1968.

Oh, you finished in 鈥�68?

Yeah, oh, excuse me. That鈥檚 right. 鈥楩inished in 鈥�68. I got in in 1962. I鈥檓 sorry, I got-. I started in 1962 at 麻豆AV, yeah.

So you finished in 鈥�68 and what did you do then?

Well, I was working in 196-. My life is basically, I always call it, like I told the students, it鈥檚 like a series of incidents, you know? And I think if I can do that, that鈥檚 what I was telling them, anyone can do that. To me, if you are- if you want to live your life and you want to give it all you鈥檝e got, the future will look after itself. You see, and that鈥檚 what I- my life is the result of luck, incidents, opportunities-

[10:30:22]

But a lot of hard work, too.

Oh, well, for sure, hard work, hard work, basically hard work. I鈥檓 saying if a guy says, 鈥淲ell, I didn鈥檛 have the breaks so I didn鈥檛 have this, I didn鈥檛 have that鈥�. I think if you look- if you have the attitude and you know yourself, and you do what you do best, in any career, and you look here not over there, the over there will look after itself, see? So- because I never had any thoughts of going to Calgary here in this cowboy country and you know being a Francophone here, I鈥檓 the ultimate sort of, what do you call, example of what not to do, in a way, and how to succeed. And it worked. And I feel very satisfied with what I鈥� ve done. I don鈥檛 have expectations to be a Moshe Safdie or- but the idea is that you have to be happy with the things you do and that happiness has to be inwards so you can still keep your general, everyday broad look at architecture as a noble profession, you see.

[11:38:29]

But I was trying to pin you down in 1968. Did you stay in Montreal for a short period of time?

Well, I, like I said, in 1967, I was working for Morris Charney at Lahaie and Robert in Montreal. I had a good job in the summertime. He brought me in and then when I had a very good thesis result, it was published in The Star and so he called me up, 鈥淵ou鈥檝e got to work for us at Lahaie鈥�. And I worked with the Complexe Desjardins in Montreal. I did the urban design with Morris there. And we worked for a good six months doing these big high-rises and it was very interesting. But then the work kind of petered out. And then I- the same old thing. Ever since then, as soon as I graduated, eh, I鈥檝e had this urgency button that I hit that聽the race is on, man! You鈥檝e got to make it by the time you鈥檙e forty!聽You know, I mean that kind of stuff. So I looked at that and I said, 鈥淲ell, Morris鈥�. So at the time when I was in school, there was a guy in Calgary here, this is the incidents I was talking about, okay? I had done a thesis in Montreal, a very nice- I mean I think it was a good piece. It鈥檚 housing in east central Montreal by Jacques-Cartier Bridge, all the slums. And this is what I was doing. I鈥檓 going to fix up all their mess, you see. So Jack Long, who鈥檚 an architect in Calgary here was doing his Master鈥檚 at 麻豆AV. So he came, attended all those classes and so he interviewed me to come down to Calgary to go work for him. And I talked to him; I wasn鈥檛 very serious. And so I just said, 鈥淔ine, fine, fine鈥�. But then after Charney鈥檚 work was kind of over and then I鈥檇 done everything I had to do then in Montreal, things after 鈥�68, it was very kind of slow. So Jack gives me a call. He says, 鈥淗ey, what are you doing in Montreal? You鈥檙e supposed to be here! I鈥檝e got ten jobs for you here!鈥� So I said, 鈥淗oly shit鈥�. So I said, 鈥淢aybe I should come down. So I mean maybe it鈥檚 time if we want to explore the world鈥�. So I said, 鈥淲ell, we鈥檒l go and give it a couple of years out there鈥�. And at the time, there was all kinds of students, in fact, same classmates of mine, who were looking at coming here. There were two or three guys already here. Mike Grey, he was at TD Bank, Des Senior was here and Jim Waugh was here. There were quite a few guys already in Calgary because 鈥淕o West, young man. The work is out in Edmonton and Calgary鈥�. So, you know, a Francophone doesn鈥檛 pull out of Quebec just like that, you see! So I was really homesick and I didn鈥檛 know if I was going to do that, you know. But I figured, well, again-.

[14:25:28]

So when I arrived here, Jack had given me a job so I arrived in Calgary and then I felt really kind of not at ease too much but he was very good. So he enjoyed the thesis. He was a very good- for me, he was a very good mentor. I worked for him for a couple of years but the one thing that we did is that the first thing we did was we built my thesis, 鈥榗ause he said, 鈥淲e鈥檝e got this guy, this developer from Edmonton and Mountain Real Estate. They鈥檝e got a piece of land out in Edmonton and ta-da-da, so why don鈥檛 you just develop your ideas and bring it over there? So I did a make-up shift of what the hell we would do there, except instead of having some poor guys in there, they鈥檇 end up being intellectuals and rich guys, but- much like Habitat in Montreal. And then it worked. They built it. And I got the first design architect award in 1969 with the project that Jack had done. So then I became a member of the association and then the year after then I decided聽well, I鈥檒l start on my own, because I felt that I had more offers than I was getting at Jack鈥檚 office. So basically, my career is basically a self-learned career. I wasn鈥檛-

[15:51:15]

So you started on your own around 1971 then.

Yeah, 鈥�71, yeah. So a couple of clients came up with a bunch of townhouses to do and then I decided to do that. I had this urgency to survive and make it happen in Calgary. So all my learning of what is good or bad architecture had to be done internally, had to be done away from the capitalist forces and say, 鈥淲hat are we doing here? What have I-?鈥� So I had to- I wasn鈥檛 trained in a Webb Zarafa Menkes firm for ten, fifteen years or an Affleck. Because before, before I get there, I was going to say, I forgot to mention, at 麻豆AV, the two guys that really influenced me as outside guests were Ray Affleck, as one of the- I have to say is one of the main ones, because he was my crit on quite a few projects and I really think he is one of the idols that I always had, his comments, his exuberance and then and also Victor Prus. Victor Prus came to me in fourth year arch school. He says, you know, 鈥淭his is a two by four. 鈥� You know, 鈥淟earn to know about a two by four鈥�. The basic issues of basically architecture that sticks with you all the way through life. I think these two guys stand out as-

[17:19:24]

Ray Affleck and Victor Prus.

Victor Prus and Ray Affleck, yeah, were the sort of guys that you looked- the successful pictures in Montreal in images and did the great work and emotional work and the kind of stuff that I related to so I thought that was very good.

If you started work in 1971 on your own without a partner, you just started up an office.

Yeah.

You were new to the area.

Yeah.

It鈥檚 not as if you were born in Calgary out west. That must have been difficult.

Oh yeah, it was, but the housing expertise that I learned at school with Norbert Schoenauer and then the influence of Jack Long鈥檚 office, through him, I was able to move into- I had a skill, you see. I could do housing in sort of a relatively easily fashion so I moved into a variety of housing projects and eventually I did zillions of housing projects and some interesting ones and then eventually in 1978, we got our first crack at government jobs in Edmonton. We banged on their doors quite a few times and we did their Drumheller Courthouse for the government of Alberta. Then I really laid it on, I really went flat out there in terms of what we should have done, what we should do- Department of Justice, you know. And then this is where I started to think about what I call the spirit of architecture, you see. What do I sell now? I sell the spirit of architecture. Architecture of the spirit too, you know. There is sort of- and that鈥檚 what I鈥檝e been- this is what I was talking about in Montreal. See, my- the housing thesis that I had done in Montreal, and you can ask Bruce Anderson. He was very- he was really engrossed with that. It was- the idea is a housing project was going to be a reflection of people鈥檚 aspirations. It was not an aesthetic solution but more of an emotional solution to the love for the location, the love for the place and the love for the people that you have around you to survive as a group, as a collective group, to move forward. So all those ideas are staying behind me and I always want to do- you know, you always say, 鈥淲hat kind of architecture do I do, you know? What is architecture that-? Is it Rudolph stuff? Is it Safdie stuff? Is it post-modern? Is it-?鈥� Whatever. So I eventually made it a Leblond architecture, you see? You know what I mean? And then to me, that鈥檚 the same sort of thing that you don鈥檛- I always figure that if you- when chips are down and you got a loss on your head, you better have a Leblond architecture because you can鈥檛 say, 鈥淚 did it because of this guy, this guy, this guy鈥�. It鈥檚 what- 鈥淢r. Leblond why did you do this for? 鈥� So it became聽what do I really want to do as a solution for society and what can I contribute as a person?聽And ever since then, it鈥檚 been a selling job for me to convince my staff to do the right thing, okay. And the right thing, it was not- it was very foggy at the beginning, you know, and it evolved over twenty years, you see, and it takes about twenty- for me, it took twenty years and I鈥檓 still looking for another solution, as to what to do as opposed to how to do it, you know. So I was always more concerned with the聽what to do, you know, and I always put people to test and say, 鈥淗ow do you know that鈥� s right? How do you know this? How do you know that鈥檚 right?鈥�

[21:19:00]

So the Drumheller Courthouse became first grab at聽what is justice?聽You know, can we reflect justice in a building? Can we make it happen? Can people see themselves? Can the juvenile courts be more informal than a senior court? And ta-da-da. So then on the inside, how do you feel? How do you see your maker? How do you-? So the spirit of justice became the big thing. So we, anyway, we did all this and we almost lost the commission because the chief, the deputy-minister of public works, said, 鈥淟isten, Robert, we don鈥檛 do these white elephant architectural statements, to be an architect鈥�, because he saw it as an architectural statement. 鈥淲e do little houses with the flags on top, you know, and two steps in the front鈥�. But I said, 鈥淲ell, we鈥檝e done all this with your people. They鈥檙e in agreement with this. It鈥檚 our project. It鈥檚 ready to go, so if we change the attitude about this, then it鈥檚 a whole redraw and it鈥檚 double the fees and everything else鈥�. So anyway, I don鈥檛 know what happened, but behind all this, they finally decided to go with it, so it鈥� s built. And then the chief justice of Alberta thought it was one of the- it鈥� s in the Courthouses of America, the book, and it鈥檚 one of the better courthouses in Alberta and a major statement from-.

[22:49:00]

And that led to eventually- that was in 1978. That led to, for the government, to the Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump, you know, which they said, 鈥淲ell, you know, the courthouse is so great, you see鈥�. But then they say- you had to stand on the table and keep your integrity there, see, and then sell out my soul and say, 鈥淲ell, it鈥檚 okay if you change anything you want鈥�, you know? So when the museum came in, we didn鈥檛 know but we got selected to be the architect, you see. And that was the sort of the second phase of our- that was a survival project as I mentioned in the paper, because that was 1982, after the crash, but up to then, you see, up to- 鈥�70 to 鈥�82, we were doing what I call commercial architecture. We were doing high-rises. We did the Pan-Canadian tower downtown. But they just kind of- they were solutions to a need. But they weren鈥檛 too spirited, you know? I mean except- because the limitations are so great. But that鈥檚 sort of a- but that- the reason why we got the Pan-Canadian is because when I was working for Jack, you see, there was a draughtsman there that was there and he liked what I was doing. And he did a lot of housing for me at night, you know. And he became a major player with Marathon. So 1972 to 1976 now, we鈥檙e four years, I鈥檓 doing all this housing stuff and all over the North, Fort McMurray, you know. We have a staff of about maybe fifteen people or something. And we鈥檙e working on Auclair with- and we got involved with the Auclair project, a four-hundred-million-dollar project with Skidmore Owens and Merrill out in New York. So we鈥檙e flying New York-Calgary, you know, all of it.

[24:40:07]

This is the- down on the Bow, you mean?

Yeah. So we were- because of the housing I was doing, see people- don鈥檛 underestimate the clients, you see. So I鈥檓 doing this little housing stuff with little guys like New West Development Corporation and Qualico, all these kind of- it would be like Belcor in Montreal. But these little Belcors become big Belcors after a while and they build a high-rise downtown for their offices. But the architects I was working for at the time didn鈥檛 see this future. So I was doing this and all of a sudden, they become involved in Auclair, you know. They need a housing guy so they bring New West in as a major third- thirty percent shareholder in development. So they say, 鈥淲e need an architect that understands housing, you see鈥�. So they said, 鈥淗ey鈥�. So I went to see him. I said, 鈥淟isten, Charlie, you need a guy that knows you, understands you. I鈥檓 the guy. You see, I did all this work and ta-da-da鈥�. I gave him a snow job but basically, I didn鈥檛 have any high-rise experience before. So I鈥檓 in right away, in 1976, I鈥檓 a third partner with Skidmore Owens and Merrill in New York and Wesley in Edmonton, Jim Wesley Architects. So we鈥檙e involved with this for four years there, to redevelop, to rezone and reclassify the land where Auclair is now. And while we鈥檙e doing this, you see, then I had enough credibility to say to the Marathon people, 鈥淵eah, we can handle the tower. You see, I mean, look, we鈥檙e doing this stuff at Skidmore鈥�. So it was all kind of up hype a little bit, but anyway. So this fellow who I worked for, he vouched for me, like, big time. So we started preliminary plans and preliminary plans and preliminary plans. And then eventually, great, we鈥檙e in the doorway, we go to the city, we鈥� ve got a permit. Cripe, they would say, 鈥淗ow the hell does this Leblond guy do these big buildings downtown?鈥� You know, we鈥檙e the first guy, the local little guy that does- we鈥檙e one of the first buildings that鈥檚 done out of Toronto, that鈥� s not done in Toronto, that鈥檚 done in Calgary by a local Calgary firm, eh? And then I remember the comments that were from Sinclair, Ian Sinclair of CPR: 鈥淲ho is this Leblond guy?鈥� You know, with a big cigar. And you know, he says. 鈥淲ell,鈥� the guy says, 鈥淲ell, don鈥檛 worry, he鈥檚 a very good guy, ta-da-da鈥� . So anyway, we slid right through so we had to do the job. So that was a major feat for us from 1978 to 鈥�82.

[27:15:26]

And then we got this on the ground and done and that helped us out establish our credibility. But here鈥檚 another instance, so I go from 麻豆AV to Jack Long鈥� s office, to a draughtsman in Jack Long鈥檚 office to a Marathon tower, eh. And then here I am, while we鈥檙e doing the Marathon tower, this CPR guy says, 鈥淗ey, in Banff they鈥檙e doing some projects. The hotels, they want to do some reclassification and tourists are getting more and more and more and more-

Upscale?

Stronger and stronger so we need some housing in Banff. 鈥淲ell, we鈥檒l bring the old man from Banff Springs. He鈥檚 going to come down here tomorrow. Why don鈥檛 you give him a nice quick sketch? And we don鈥檛 want to be bothered because there鈥檚 no money in housing. We鈥檙e into big buildings and stuff like that鈥�. So that鈥檚 in 19- probably 鈥�78-80, somewhere around there. So anyway, I said, 鈥淔ine鈥� . So he comes in. So I meet this guy for a supposed to be a couple of hours and draw him a sketch. And we did draw him a nice little sketch for some staff housing that he wanted to do for his hotel in Banff, you see. But again, we go down there, we loved the land, we loved the site and do the best job we can, you know, for free this time. It鈥檚 just kind of a free deal, eh. Because, you know, we鈥檙e great architects. We鈥檙e doing the towers and you know, I said, 鈥淲e can afford to do all this鈥�. So that鈥檚 1980-81. So we do this and we gave him- so we hope to hell that something鈥檚 going to come out of it, you know. 1986, six years later, we鈥檙e doing the museum, the Head-Smashed-In Museum. Everything is coming out to stride, you know. The museum opened up in 鈥�87 so he calls back. This guy from- and here we were, this was depression time here. It was low. Everyone was pessimistic. You know, what we were going to do next. You know, but we had the museum. At least we worked around that and it was going very good and then we had this thing about the way it鈥檚 going to come. But this guy called me up and he says, 鈥淩obert Leblond?鈥� he says, this is- he was a Ukrainian- Czechoslovakian guy. 鈥� Remember me? Ivor Petrak鈥�. He says, 鈥�1982鈥�. 鈥淵eah, yeah鈥�. 鈥淩emember the sketch you did for us?鈥� 鈥淵eah鈥�. See? He says, 鈥淭hat was the best sketch out of all the sketches we鈥檝e seen鈥�. And they had, because they had other firms going, proposals and builders to do this. So we thought we were just out of the race, you know, it鈥檚 not-. But this guy had gone to Europe and Florida and everywhere. So anyway, six years later, he calls back, 鈥� I want to meet with you tomorrow morning and I want to sit down and go over this plan of yours and ta-da-da-da and see how we can-. And I鈥檓 going to keep you busy forever鈥�. He says, 鈥淲e鈥檝e got plans down there for big time鈥�. So we go down there and we meet and then sure enough, we did the first staff housing in Banff for them, about a fifteen-million-dollar job. And it evolved and evolved and we鈥� ve been involved at CPR, CP Hotels ever since. So it shows you the progress from-

[30:40:22]

Just a little token meeting, and it鈥檚 because, all of a sudden, if you do it well, you never know how valuable-.

You see, you put a seed in the ground and it becomes a nice flower. So that was the sort of from a business standpoint. So it shows you an example there. And then we got involved in Banff and we got involved in Chateau Lake Louise and we got involved in Jasper Park Lodge and we could never do good enough for them and I鈥檝e been involved in the Rockies for them for sixteen years.

[31:13:03]

I always say life is great. Anyway, you have to be happy with the results that you- even if they鈥檙e minuscule, they鈥檙e stepping-stones too, to the next one and to the next one. And everyday is a new day. And I always say to the kids in my office, to tell them that, 鈥淢ake sure the next day is a better day for you. Make sure you don鈥檛 take yesterday as given and you move a step forward鈥�. We always have to surpass ourselves. The greatest challenge in life is for everyone, whatever you did yesterday, you should do better tomorrow. You should never, because if you go- I always say, if you stand still, you鈥檙e going backwards. You have to move against the current. And to me, whether it鈥� s an involvement of your psychological balance or whether it鈥檚 a smarter way of looking at things, or a more- it all has to do with a personal development. And I always feel in our day of computerization, in our days of- most everybody today could be an architect, I mean, you can sell architectural programmes on the computer, everybody鈥檚 an architect. But what differentiates between I always say between an architect and a real architect is I call is a spirit of architecture. And that comes through your, I feel, through your own energy. You put your energy back into your work. Architecture to me is a metamorphosis of an idea. So you have to have an idea. Without ideas, there鈥檚 no architecture, you see. So without ideas, architecture for me is only materiality. It鈥檚 only assembling of blocks. And then so to me, architecture in the future is architecture of the spirit, where you take- where you go in the intellectual realm of聽what is architecture?聽And that鈥檚- it鈥檚 all very- it鈥檚 above the materials. It鈥檚 above the- it鈥檚 whatever- it opens up a brand new horizon. Because I always figure that guys who play with bricks and steel and- there鈥檚 only so many ways you can do that. After awhile, you lose interest. But if you have a higher goal, a more noble creed to reach for it, and it鈥檚 so high you can鈥檛 reach it so you keep struggling towards that, and that鈥檚 what I, as a firm, I鈥� ve been trying to do. So I say to my staff to at least attempt to develop as you start, from the very first day out of school, is to develop a voice. What is good? What is not so good? What do you feel about this particular work? That particular work? Develop an attitude about what architecture is about. So if you work towards that, eventually, you鈥檙e going to get there. You might not get there first year. Some guys take their whole career. Some guys take two years, some guys, and they stay there. Some guys grow, grow, grow, grow, and keep growing forever, see? And that鈥檚 the beauty about, to me, architecture, it has a forever field of interest that is so exciting to me. So if I don鈥檛 discover anything- and I run a very transparent firm, eh? I mean, today, I look a little bit dressed up here, but generally, I run an atelier. We discuss things; I get my hands in every project. I draw everything. I sketch everything. I mean I push everyone to do- to do. You know, and I find the exuberance or the enthusiasm or the possessiveness not as existing, not as present as it used to be, you know. I鈥檝e got to say, I have never met yet a guy that can-

Like you!

That meets- that has met my expectations in terms of a willingness or a love for life, you know? And architecture, that鈥檚 what it is: it鈥檚 a love for life, love of people. And you鈥檝e got to love people, love their situation to say- to want to improve it. Because if you don鈥檛 like it, well, you can only be indifferent. And then also, the other part of our work that I鈥檝e been- very hard, because of my artistic background, and that鈥檚 part of, I call it the spirit, is to create environments that the people, even the small person, the citizen, the ordinary guy can feel, can sense, can say, 鈥淚 like that鈥� you see? So when you get a guy saying, a little, uneducated person saying, 鈥� I like that鈥� , then that means that you鈥檝e done something in that space that dialogues with him, that tells him, 鈥淗ey, I look after you. I鈥檝e been looking after your interest鈥�. Or, 鈥淚 create excitement for you鈥�. And that kind of dialogue, that鈥檚 what we- I think if you can reach the emotions of society, to me that鈥檚 where we鈥檙e at. And that鈥檚 why we鈥檙e struggling very hard to get that, because this is where we feel our assets are, is to reach the emotions of society. If you can do that, I think we鈥檝e gone a long way, you see.

[36:41:19]